Why no news about him? Waiting for working permit?

Both Kenyon and Fergie have basically confirmed the deal and have said they will apply for the permit when they get back from America.

I think I know why they are leaving it.

Kleberson made his debut for Brazil in early 2002 but this means he had missed about 5-6 games since July 2001.

Officially he has therefore not played in 75% of Brazil's internationals in the last 2 years. By leaving the application until early August they may be able to get his % a bit higher.

Since his debut he has played in all games to the end of the world cup bar 2, all of the confed cup games and none of the Gold Cup games as Brazil sent their under age side there. He will probably still not meet the 75% but should get a permit on appeal based on his % since debut, the country he comes from (ranked 1) and his ability to make a significant contribution to the game in England. He is also seen as a premanent member of Brazil's first XI.

I guess you're right but he's another defensive player.

People keep saying he is a defensive player as if that is a limitation and that we have too many of them in the squad.

If push comes to shove he can play right sided defence, central defence, right sided or central defensive or normal midfield.

Do Keane, Viera, Edgar Davids play big parts in their respective sides attacking moves ? I believe the answer is a big yes. On paper they are called defensive midfielders but are good/great players.

We whould judge Kleberson on his quality not the fact he is "defensive".

Fergie has clearly stated that he is getting younger players in for the midfield because the reagulars are aging a bit. We don't know if Keane will be around for more than this season and that is from the player himself.

If Kleberson or Djemba come off we have a replacement when Keane hangs up his boots. Better to have the two options just in case.

Yes we need a defender, striker and attacking midfielder/creative forward. I suspect we will get 2 of those this season if Veron leaves.

For me getting players with Kleberson's experience/quality and Djemba's potential/attitude for 10m total is a good move forthe future. We don't know if either will settle into the English game but that is why we will have both of them not just one.

that can't be it. Tim howard only has 6 national caps.

Tim Howard got his permit on appeal because he had not played in 75% of the last 2 years worth of US games.

He got it because he is considered to be a future star keeper and because he was signed as a potential no 1 not as merely a squad player.

Fergie said at the hearing that he would be given the opportunity to become the no 1 keeper.

Here are the permit rules

Kleberson will get his on appeal because he is from the no 1 ranked country and after his debut he has been picked in most of the important national team games eg the world cup games including the final. He aslo played in the confed cup but not the Gold Cup because Brazil played a youth side.

You are leaving out one requirement Gumpy, and the one that by rights should see virtually every single application rejected. The primary criteria for any company looking to employ foreign staff is to demonstrate there is no available staff with the same skills available within the EU region. This is a law that football has been allowed to ignore, and it isn’t acceptable. The fact is there are now hundred of unemployed footballers in Britain, with countless more across the rest of the EU. It is one thing to bring in the likes of Ronaldo but the run of the mill players should be shown the door. I’ve been lobbying on this issue for some time, and it is only a matter of time before the various players unions mount yet another legal case.

If you look at the full list of foreigners in the EU there are very few you can call unique. Most don’t even command a place in the team, merely being squad players. It is all very well making a case for the big names, but try justifying Igor Biscan or, as you are an Aussie, Foxe, Popovic et al.

It was barely tolerable while the game was booming, but now there are more and more EU players featuring in the unemployment statistics it is now completely outrageous.


Howard doesn’t meet any of the criteria, and wouldn’t have got a permit on appeal. The only reason we’ve been allowed to bring him over relates to a technicality with his nationality. He relied upon his Hungarian connection to get in, based on the imminent accession of that state.

Kleberson’s application is anything but assured of success. His claim is on a par to Celio Silva’s back in 97, and we all know what happened there. Sadly he will probably get one - good from a United perspective, but not for the kids forced on the dole... or for the likes of Fletcher, Chadwick, Stewart, Djordic, Timm, Richardson and Pugh trying to embark on a career. We already have Fortune wasting resources. Keep in mind there are a finite number of jobs in the game. The domino effect kicks in and someone is out of work down the line.

I understand your point and partially agree with it.

However there will always be disagreement on the worth of Kleberson. I am not saying there is not another similar EU player but some will argue that Kleberson is of the highest calibre and will given time be a first team choice. I do think he is quality but how good I do not know.

Another problem I have is that there are different rules across the EU countries. Spain for example can get any non eu player but can only have 3 of them in their 25 man squad.

I don't really care what the rules are provided they are the same across Europe.

Kaka is an example of someone who would not get a permit under the current system in England but probably would in a year or 2. But he can waltz into another European club provided they have a non eu slot. I reckon the 3 player limit should be the rule across Europe and the work permit idea be scrapped. If you would then suggest a 2 or 1 player limit then that is fine provided it is the same across the board.

Having said all that my main concern is for United and therefore I would tend towards letting in the Klebersons.

To me if the appeal rules (below) were applied strictly then there would be no problem.

REVIEWS

Where an application has been refused on the grounds that it does not meet the published criteria, a club may seek a review against the decision. A club will have 28 days to inform Work Permits (UK) that it wishes to seek such a review. If a review is sought within this time limit, Work Permits (UK) will refer the club's evidence to an independent review panel.


The review panel will normally consist of representatives from the relevant football governing bodies together with up to three independent experts. The panel's terms of reference are to consider whether the player is of the highest calibre and able to contribute significantly to the development of the game at the top level in UK.

Actually the requirements relating to EU nationals applies across the entire region in the form of employment law, hence the impending threat of a Bosman III.

In terms of the foreigners rules in other leagues you have to remember these pre-date the EU, and Bosman. Until last season you could only field three foreigners in England - a rule that has existed for decades, although it never included the other Brits for obvious reasons.

Re Kleberson, in footballing terms he easily qualifies. He falls down only on the general labour rules which have nothing to do with football whatsoever.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SalfordRed
Actually the requirements relating to EU nationals applies across the entire region in the form of employment law, hence the impending threat of a Bosman III.

In terms of the foreigners rules in other leagues you have to remember these pre-date the EU, and Bosman. Until last season you could only field three foreigners in England - a rule that has existed for decades, although it never included the other Brits for obvious reasons.

Re Kleberson, in footballing terms he easily qualifies. He falls down only on the general labour rules which have nothing to do with football whatsoever.

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You are destined for an unhappy life then

What do you expect to happen then ? That the rules stay as they are in each of the countries until another court case ? What are the possible outcomes of a Bosman III situation ?

There are far to many variables to even hazard a guess. However what is certain is the unique interpretation each member country puts on any facet of EU law. What Spain regards as beyond challenge, Britain regards as a guideline while France ignores, and vice versa. The system is a shambles because of the immense cultural differences. You'll never get a common application until you've got a common government. Federal Europe is your only hope, and that is a non-starter for 90% of the population.

Keep in mind all that is before you take each individual nations FA into account... Bangladesh will be the dominant Test nation before a common policy exists across the EU... England might even win the Ashes again

The Margin of Appreciation. Its actually part of case law that countries can interpret laws differently according to the cultural values of their nation provided it's within what is known as the margin of appreciation, a specifically ill defined term that leaves no real prospect of harmony.

But I don't really see the problem, the training players get in this country compared to much of the rest of the world outside the EU they should be able to compete and if a manager wants an African or Chinese lad in his squad rather than an English player then thats the managers decision and its for those players who want to get in the squad to work their way into it.

And England winning the Ashes ... yeah ok not in my lifetime.

The work permit has been granted. Hopefully he will sign alongside Ronaldo these few days